Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Why the trinity cannot be explained--not even by quantum mechanics!!

 This was a conversation I had with a christian concerning the logic, or lack thereof, of the Christian "trinity."  He attempted to find logic in the trinity by comparing it to quantum theory, but he failed miserably. 

Atheist--I believe the trinity is illogical for the following reasons:

For example, relative identity, the view that a thing x can not be said to be the same as or identical to a thing y, but is only the same kind of thing K--and thus identity is merely relative, or the same in a loose and popular sense; is not the christain claim of trinity, which is that Yahweh is Jesus--not a "K"--or same "kind" of thing.

When most christians claim that Yahweh and Jesus are the same they mean same in the strict philosophical sense as in Yahweh = Jesus and not the loose and popular sense in which for example we say that two balls x and y are the same as in they have the same color and are both round but they are not really the same because ball x is a soccer ball and ball y is a basketball. They have the same genus (are of the same Kind), that is they are both balls, but are different types, one is a soccer ball and the other is a basketball. Another example--in the loose and popular sense we might say that the word 'the' is the same as 'the', and 'the' and every other 'the' on this page--but really they are types and not the same in strict philosophical sense as they have different attributes, in this example for instance 'the' is to the right of 'the' which is to the right of 'the' (note that relations are properties too.)

The christian claim that Yahweh = Jesus is counter-intuitive, since the Bible says that Jesus will be sitting on the right hand side of Yahweh, and __right of__ is a two place predicate and a relation and thus an attribute. Given our knowledge, what we know from experience and the hypothetical deductive method, it is counter-intuitive that Yahweh = Jesus and that Jesus will be sitting on the right hand side of Yahweh. When we evaluate an identity statement, we have to know what things are being identified, or being referred to. In this case, the bible provides us with that information, such as Jesus will be sitting at the right hand side of Yahweh. I have no problem with Christians holding on to the notion of Trinity based on faith which is belief without evidence or others holding to their faith that Goddess Diana is flying on a pink elephant. However, if they claim to KNOW that it is true, or try to argue that it is perfectly logical, then we can apply Leibniz's law, or any other deductive or inductive rules of reasoning that apply. The trinity is illogical as such--If Yahweh = Jesus then Jesus cannot be to the right of Yahweh. So, by the law of &Introduction Jesus cannot sit on the right hand side of Yahweh and is sitting on the right hand side of Yahweh--which is a contradiction. Therefore, the christian conception is illogical.

Furthermore, if Yahweh and Jesus are both of the same KIND but different TYPES, then christianity would be polytheistic, and not monotheistic as having two types of gods would mean that they have more than one god. Unless of course, they mean by mono that Yahweh is the supreme being, and Jesus and the holy ghost are lesser types of gods which would also still mean that they are monotheistic, and polytheistic at the same time!

Christian--You're trying to apply classical newtonian reasoning to a transcendent being, then saying it is counterintuitive.

What if you apply logic from the quantum realm? Because quantum physics makes the exact same claims regarding quantum entanglement.
Since we cannot see an individual quantum particle, I shall use superconductors as the example. It is the same argument, only scaled up to macroscopic size for ease of viewing.

if you have 2 superconductors and their meissner fields merge, according to the laws of physics, you only have one superconductor. if you alter one, the change is seen instantly in the other. it is actually instant, and not propagating at the speed of light. they are not two things communicating, they are actually one.

Yet, walk in to the room, and you will see two. Now, according to your argument, if they are sitting beside each other, they cannot be one.
Ask Mr. Quantum Physicist, and he will show you the equations proving them to be one.

So when jesus says "i and the father are one" this is the same claim.
Your protests are basically an argument from incredulity because such a claim is counterintuitive in our classical world which our 5 senses perceive. yet there is no actual reason in the laws of physics for the claim to be untrue.

Btw. jesus sits at the right hand of the father. Both are yhwh.

Atheist--As far as quantum mechanics goes, for the sake of argument I will assume there are such things. Consider the description of entanglement where 2 superconductors act as one--the key here is, is that you have TWO acting as ONE. So, if you have two super beings acting as one supreme being, you would have polytheism, where two gods are acting as one supreme being--the key words being "acting as" one.

For examples, let us compare some things that we can see, and that you may have experienced. Consider a potato sack race, where 2 people put one leg into a bad, and act as one in order to accomplish a goal. ie win a race. If one falls down, the other falls as well. We can say that the two are now one, in a LOOSE AND POPULAR SENSE, but NOT IN A STRICT SENSE. Likewise, in the case of two superconductors, we have TWO superconductors acting as one, and again, they have different properties, as one superconductor is at the right of the other, and the other is at the left of the other. Therefore, they have different properties, although they may act as one.

In another example we can consider a tank platoon. Let's say this tank platoon is made up of three tanks. These three tanks act as one, and are considered to BE one unit. This one unit made up of three tanks, must act as one. They are one and the same, but only in the loose and popular sense, for they still are three.

--Firstly, it seems to me that you first rationalize the scenario and reason that there are 2 things ACTING as one, then proceed to debunk your own rationalization, but there is no requirement to say that they are ACTING as 1. Quantum physics refutes the necessity to interpret it that way.

For instance, when you create a bose einstien condensate, you can no longer say that you have many atoms ACTING as one, but that you have 1 macro atom.

When you say that the 2 superconductors have different properties, such as 1 being to the right and 1 to the left, you are correct only according to your limited frame of reference.

trying to explain how quantum entanglement works requires reference to higher dimensions such as those posited by string theory or required by relativity.
no one really knows 100% how it works, it came about to resolve a paradox proposed by einstein, then proven by experiment.

Ok, so if we were able to see from this higher dimension, we'd see that there is only 1, but that it protrudes into 3d space in 2 places. therefore any 3d being viewing it would see 2 things. God is described as a higher dimensional being. The ark of the covenant, the throne of god, had 4 spatial dimensions - length, breadth, depth and height. but we live in a 3d world.
God is described as living in the heights. in todays language, he lives in the higher dimension.
can't use 3d logic.

Atheist--Just to clarify, I am NOT the one who stated that there were "2 superconductors"--this was part of your explanation in the answer you gave me.

I am a "Millian", and therefore go by the "Permanent Possibility of Sensations" I am only ASSUMING for your sake that quantum mechanics, atoms and so forth, even exist. But, for your argument, you need it to be the case that 2 SEPARATE things are ONE thing in the STRICT philosophical sense. So, it would appear that you will not be able to get around this problem with the notion of "2 semiconductors" being one, except in the loose and popular sense--not the strict sense. This is a problem, and why the trinity is illogical, as it claims that three separate beings are one being in the STRICT sense.

The trinity claims that Yahweh, jesus and the holy ghost are the same in the "strict" sense, and not the loose and popular sense--which is the biggest problem for this doctrinal claim.

Christian--The definition for entanglement is as follow: "Entanglement] is not one, but rather the characteristic trait of quantum mechanics, the one that enforces its entire departure from classical lines of thought"

You will not find the description to be "ACTING" as 1.

"Quantum entanglement is a property of the quantum mechanical state of a system containing two or more objects, where the objects that make up the system are linked in such a way that the quantum state of any member of the system cannot be adequately described without full mention of the other members of the system, even if the individual objects are spatially separated."

Atheist--I am not sure if you are familiar with "SET theory," but take a set X. {1,2,3} Now, when we talk about set X, it is made up of 1,2,3. 1,2,3 are the members of this set. We might say that they are one, but this would only be so in the loose and popular sense, as in they are the members of set X, and they are one set. But they are not the same. 1 =/=2, 2=/=3, and so on. Therefore, they cannot be the same in the strict sense.

Three tanks make a platoon. Two people make one potato sack racer, and so on and so on....but none of these members of the set are the same in the strict philosophical sense. If the trinitarians meant in the loose and popular sense, it would be a moot point, but then that would also make them polytheistic--now wouldn't it...:)

--No. there are 2 sc, from our perspective, there is only 1 from the higher perspective.

To say there are 2 supercundoctors ACTING as 1 is incorrect. the correct view is that there is only 1, intruding on our 3d space at 2 points. Our universe is relativistic, things appear different according to your frame of reference. time flow, for instance.

So basically by claiming to be a "Millian" and going by the Permanent Possibility of Sensations, you're arguing against god and against quantum physics using philosophy?
Philosophy ??? Dude, quantum physics works. We're communicating right now over a computer!

Phenomenalism is like so last century. it was superseded by physicalism for a reason, namely proof. Theories such as relativity and quantum physics forced the change. No longer was it "Hey, i reckon it's like this" instead it became "i reckon it's like this, and we need to do x y x to verify or falsify the claim".

Atheist--I haven't been to explore the quantum aspect any deeper, but I have a question for you.

How do you KNOW there is ONE superconductor behind the atom curtain? They do not even actually KNOW that there are such things as atoms!! Or what they are!!--or even if the exist!! As far as you know, there could be a thousand SC's, that they claim is only one. I am sure you are aware of Kuhn and Feyerabend, and "Against Method"--so don't put too much faith in your "proven" science, because what is a fact today, such as when the majority believed the earth to be flat was a fact, can be shown to be false when new data comes forth.

BTW--JS Mill is not as "stupid" as you imply him to be, after all, what is it that the "quantum" people claim to be basing their evidence on--the "sensations" that they have from observations based on hypotheses.--NOT any actual atoms.

I did not receive a reply--for what I believe are obvious reasons--he had no answer to my question. Just as Christians cannot KNOW there is a god, quantum physicists also cannot KNOW, as they cannot "sense" any actual atoms. It's theory--and it's that simple.


  1. I enjoyed reading your blogpost, very interesting view points. have you ever looked into Islam? as muslims we BEGIN our declaration of faith by first saying that there IS NO GOD! seriously ...look it up.

    Search for Scientific miracles in the Quran on google and you'll find that the quran explains in GREAT detail the big bang, as well as the existence of atoms, the stages in human embryology and much much much more. All this having been revealed to Muhammad who was illiterate back 1400 years ago.

    I urge you A check it out its something to think about. you see islam is a religion grasped by people of reasoning and understanding like yourself.

    with respect

    zeeshan k

    1. It goes like: "there is no god but God" .We are not atheists, rather, strict monotheists.
      I wish muslims would stop being populists or claiming other beliefs illogical just so we appeal to other people's thinking, goodness gracious
      I say this as a muslim