Sunday, January 9, 2011

Sin and Perfection part 2

To continue along with the conversation, my christian friend is still adamant in his belief that it is not possible for him to be perfect. He is still wrong......

Christian:"We're commanded to strive for perfection, even though we can never truly get to that level."

Atheist--My point exactly. In other words, you are told it is NOT possible to be perfect, but then you are told you should at least try, but you are expected to fail.  As a "born sinner," you are taught that  you can't help but do bad things....which leads to christians behaving in immoral ways--they just can't help it!! What I said is, it IS possible to be perfect, and not that I am perfect from the day I am born to the day I die. Today I was perfect, because I did not commit any "sins." ie a willful transgression.  Christians emphasize that it is NOT possible to be perfect, and that you are ALWAYS sinning.....every second of the day......and can't help yourselves from doing so. According to christians, you are always doing bad things or thinking bad thoughts, and this belief promotes BAD behavior. ie.It would be like Jesus saying," You are not supposed to commit adultery after marriage, so try not to, but I know you can't do it because you are a born sinner, so go ahead and commit adultery anyway. Just tell me about it later, and I will forgive you."--which is absurd.

Christian-- "He still requires that we be accountable for our actions."

Atheist--He does?? And what is this "accountability exactly?? Asking god for forgiveness, so you can go to paradise when you die?? How does that help the victims of child abuse, rape, and the families of those murdered by christians who "repent"?? That is NOT accountability.

As I mentioned, accountability does not come from an invisible deity. To be accountable, one must face oneself, and their victims, and pay restitution....which is only done through secular laws....not through religious dogma.

Yesterday, and I was perfect, just as I am on most days, as I do not lust after others, nor harm them in any way. I, unlike many christians, have self control and I take responsibility for my actions very seriously. I wish most christians would do the same. It would result in less child abuse, less rape, less murder, and less adultery etc......almost all of which are committed by christians in our society.

Whether I have committed a "sin" or not is not determined by what other people think independent of reality.

Christian--The reality is there are lots of things you don't know. So you shouldn't just rely on your finite mind alone to tell you what reality actually is.

Furthermore, God does not overlook the justice system of the world. He allows it so that any murderer, rapist, robber.. should pay the penalty for the heinous acts they commit here on earth. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you get a free pass here"

Atheist--Ah...but as this life has no real value to many christians, and all that does is spending paradise with their savior, all that matters to many is that they "repent". Otherwise, priests would not be molesting children, and fundamentalists would not be practicing homosexuality, etc those are considered "sins" (although I disagree with homosexuality between consenting adults being wrong) If, however, the passages in Hebrews 10 were taken seriously, the world would not be filled with such "sinners"

Christian--"Again, I have to stress that the problem here is that you have a different view of what perfection is."

Atheist--No, I am going by the CHRISTIAN definition, in that perfection is WITHOUT SIN--which means that I was perfect yesterday, the day before yesterday, and still am today.

Christian--The problem here is that we don't say people sin everyday, although sometimes we be doing things that are wrong but not be aware of it.  The Bible says that no one who truly follows God willfully sins. "

Atheist--When you are unaware that what you are doing is wrong, then it is a mistake...plain and simple. This is how we learn.  By stating that: "no one who truly follows God willfully sins. " you admit there really are NO christians, or very few of them, as almost every one who proclaims they are christian WILLFULLY sins. ie. those people I mentioned earlier who commit adultery, molest children, commit extortion, etc etc.

BTW...I do hope you are aware of Hebrews 10:26-27, which states that anyone who has accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, but continues to sin WILLFULLY will go to the pit of fire despite being a believer, as there is "no more sacrifice for sins" It's a one time deal, and it is not talking about apostates or unbelievers--it is in reference to believers.

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26-27

Christian--What about the atheists that do the very same things you mentioned above? And I hope you'd understand that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually a Christian. Unless you're born again, you're not a Christian. I'm not saying born again Christians have never done any of those things, but I just want you to bear in mind that 50% of people who say they're Christians are not really Christians. Just because they go to Church don't really mean they sincerely believe and worship God,
and unless you're born again, you're not a Christian anyway." made me laugh, as every other so-called christian denomination says EXACTLY the same thing! If you are not JW, you are not Christian. If you are not Catholic, you are not christian. If you are not a Baptist, you are not Christian. etc. etc..... Your claim therefore, is meaningless, as all you are doing is promoting your own version of Christian dogma without any evidence to back it up, just as everyone else does. I am sure the fundamentalist preachers who drive in limos and live in million dollar mansions would agree with you though, as people such as yourself are why they live in mansions and ride around in limos in the first place.

It's not over yet.  To be continued.....

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