Who's to judge?

  A very short conversation I had with a fundamentalist about the "final judgment"--which ultimately is a waste of time and moot if Yahweh knows all--he can just cast em into the pit without all the unnecessary pomp and ceremony.  lol  I just thank "god" it's made up nonsense.

---------------- 

Christian - Revelation 20:12 is the Great White Throne Judgment, only unbelievers are there. No believers are ever there. The unbelievers are shown that their works did nothing about their sin problem (only the death of Jesus solves the sin problem).

No believer is ever at the Great White Throne Judgment. Only unbelievers are there, and they all fail it, because works cannot save.

That's what happens when an "atheist" presumes to teach the Bible.

LOL!

Atheist--Wrong!! It states no where that it is the "unbelievers" that will be judged!! People like you made that up in your own twisted fashion. You fail by being ignorant........of your own book.

Who's laughing now? ME!

Read this, especially Matthew Henry's Precise Commentary at the bottom:

http://bible.cc/revelation/20-12.htm

BTW--"wicked" or "sinner" does not mean "unbeliever"...as I have met a great deal of "wicked sinners " who claim to be christians in my day.

I promote education over indoctrination. You are obviously unlearned and indoctrinated.   Revelations is nothing more than the delusional ravings of John while on the island of Patmos. I give it as much credit as I do the rest of the plagiarized book of stories you waste your life on.

Christian--Who is "Matthew Henry", and is he Jesus Christ? 

Nope. 

You lose.

Atheist--OMG (No pun intended) but that is the weakest argument(?) I have ever heard.  No...I win, because I live in reality, while you are in the matrix wasting your time, your energy and your life worshiping one of the 10,000 gods/goddesses created by mankind.

I truly pity people like you. You waste the one life you have hoping you will end up worshiping a narcissistic deity day and night for eternity.

It is sad and pitiful.

--------------------

Why the trinity cannot be explained--not even by quantum mechanics!!

 This was a conversation I had with a christian concerning the logic, or lack thereof, of the Christian "trinity."  He attempted to find logic in the trinity by comparing it to quantum theory, but he failed miserably. 

Atheist--I believe the trinity is illogical for the following reasons:

For example, relative identity, the view that a thing x can not be said to be the same as or identical to a thing y, but is only the same kind of thing K--and thus identity is merely relative, or the same in a loose and popular sense; is not the christain claim of trinity, which is that Yahweh is Jesus--not a "K"--or same "kind" of thing.

When most christians claim that Yahweh and Jesus are the same they mean same in the strict philosophical sense as in Yahweh = Jesus and not the loose and popular sense in which for example we say that two balls x and y are the same as in they have the same color and are both round but they are not really the same because ball x is a soccer ball and ball y is a basketball. They have the same genus (are of the same Kind), that is they are both balls, but are different types, one is a soccer ball and the other is a basketball. Another example--in the loose and popular sense we might say that the word 'the' is the same as 'the', and 'the' and every other 'the' on this page--but really they are types and not the same in strict philosophical sense as they have different attributes, in this example for instance 'the' is to the right of 'the' which is to the right of 'the' (note that relations are properties too.)

The christian claim that Yahweh = Jesus is counter-intuitive, since the Bible says that Jesus will be sitting on the right hand side of Yahweh, and __right of__ is a two place predicate and a relation and thus an attribute. Given our knowledge, what we know from experience and the hypothetical deductive method, it is counter-intuitive that Yahweh = Jesus and that Jesus will be sitting on the right hand side of Yahweh. When we evaluate an identity statement, we have to know what things are being identified, or being referred to. In this case, the bible provides us with that information, such as Jesus will be sitting at the right hand side of Yahweh. I have no problem with Christians holding on to the notion of Trinity based on faith which is belief without evidence or others holding to their faith that Goddess Diana is flying on a pink elephant. However, if they claim to KNOW that it is true, or try to argue that it is perfectly logical, then we can apply Leibniz's law, or any other deductive or inductive rules of reasoning that apply. The trinity is illogical as such--If Yahweh = Jesus then Jesus cannot be to the right of Yahweh. So, by the law of &Introduction Jesus cannot sit on the right hand side of Yahweh and is sitting on the right hand side of Yahweh--which is a contradiction. Therefore, the christian conception is illogical.

Furthermore, if Yahweh and Jesus are both of the same KIND but different TYPES, then christianity would be polytheistic, and not monotheistic as having two types of gods would mean that they have more than one god. Unless of course, they mean by mono that Yahweh is the supreme being, and Jesus and the holy ghost are lesser types of gods which would also still mean that they are monotheistic, and polytheistic at the same time!

Christian--You're trying to apply classical newtonian reasoning to a transcendent being, then saying it is counterintuitive.

What if you apply logic from the quantum realm? Because quantum physics makes the exact same claims regarding quantum entanglement.
Since we cannot see an individual quantum particle, I shall use superconductors as the example. It is the same argument, only scaled up to macroscopic size for ease of viewing.


if you have 2 superconductors and their meissner fields merge, according to the laws of physics, you only have one superconductor. if you alter one, the change is seen instantly in the other. it is actually instant, and not propagating at the speed of light. they are not two things communicating, they are actually one.

Yet, walk in to the room, and you will see two. Now, according to your argument, if they are sitting beside each other, they cannot be one.
Ask Mr. Quantum Physicist, and he will show you the equations proving them to be one.

So when jesus says "i and the father are one" this is the same claim.
Your protests are basically an argument from incredulity because such a claim is counterintuitive in our classical world which our 5 senses perceive. yet there is no actual reason in the laws of physics for the claim to be untrue.

Btw. jesus sits at the right hand of the father. Both are yhwh.

Atheist--As far as quantum mechanics goes, for the sake of argument I will assume there are such things. Consider the description of entanglement where 2 superconductors act as one--the key here is, is that you have TWO acting as ONE. So, if you have two super beings acting as one supreme being, you would have polytheism, where two gods are acting as one supreme being--the key words being "acting as" one.

For examples, let us compare some things that we can see, and that you may have experienced. Consider a potato sack race, where 2 people put one leg into a bad, and act as one in order to accomplish a goal. ie win a race. If one falls down, the other falls as well. We can say that the two are now one, in a LOOSE AND POPULAR SENSE, but NOT IN A STRICT SENSE. Likewise, in the case of two superconductors, we have TWO superconductors acting as one, and again, they have different properties, as one superconductor is at the right of the other, and the other is at the left of the other. Therefore, they have different properties, although they may act as one.

In another example we can consider a tank platoon. Let's say this tank platoon is made up of three tanks. These three tanks act as one, and are considered to BE one unit. This one unit made up of three tanks, must act as one. They are one and the same, but only in the loose and popular sense, for they still are three.


Christian --Firstly, it seems to me that you first rationalize the scenario and reason that there are 2 things ACTING as one, then proceed to debunk your own rationalization, but there is no requirement to say that they are ACTING as 1. Quantum physics refutes the necessity to interpret it that way.

For instance, when you create a bose einstien condensate, you can no longer say that you have many atoms ACTING as one, but that you have 1 macro atom.

When you say that the 2 superconductors have different properties, such as 1 being to the right and 1 to the left, you are correct only according to your limited frame of reference.

trying to explain how quantum entanglement works requires reference to higher dimensions such as those posited by string theory or required by relativity.
no one really knows 100% how it works, it came about to resolve a paradox proposed by einstein, then proven by experiment.

Ok, so if we were able to see from this higher dimension, we'd see that there is only 1, but that it protrudes into 3d space in 2 places. therefore any 3d being viewing it would see 2 things. God is described as a higher dimensional being. The ark of the covenant, the throne of god, had 4 spatial dimensions - length, breadth, depth and height. but we live in a 3d world.
God is described as living in the heights. in todays language, he lives in the higher dimension.
can't use 3d logic.

Atheist--Just to clarify, I am NOT the one who stated that there were "2 superconductors"--this was part of your explanation in the answer you gave me.

I am a "Millian", and therefore go by the "Permanent Possibility of Sensations" I am only ASSUMING for your sake that quantum mechanics, atoms and so forth, even exist. But, for your argument, you need it to be the case that 2 SEPARATE things are ONE thing in the STRICT philosophical sense. So, it would appear that you will not be able to get around this problem with the notion of "2 semiconductors" being one, except in the loose and popular sense--not the strict sense. This is a problem, and why the trinity is illogical, as it claims that three separate beings are one being in the STRICT sense.

The trinity claims that Yahweh, jesus and the holy ghost are the same in the "strict" sense, and not the loose and popular sense--which is the biggest problem for this doctrinal claim.

Christian--The definition for entanglement is as follow: "Entanglement] is not one, but rather the characteristic trait of quantum mechanics, the one that enforces its entire departure from classical lines of thought"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement


You will not find the description to be "ACTING" as 1.


"Quantum entanglement is a property of the quantum mechanical state of a system containing two or more objects, where the objects that make up the system are linked in such a way that the quantum state of any member of the system cannot be adequately described without full mention of the other members of the system, even if the individual objects are spatially separated."

Atheist--I am not sure if you are familiar with "SET theory," but take a set X. {1,2,3} Now, when we talk about set X, it is made up of 1,2,3. 1,2,3 are the members of this set. We might say that they are one, but this would only be so in the loose and popular sense, as in they are the members of set X, and they are one set. But they are not the same. 1 =/=2, 2=/=3, and so on. Therefore, they cannot be the same in the strict sense.

Three tanks make a platoon. Two people make one potato sack racer, and so on and so on....but none of these members of the set are the same in the strict philosophical sense. If the trinitarians meant in the loose and popular sense, it would be a moot point, but then that would also make them polytheistic--now wouldn't it...:)

Christian --No. there are 2 sc, from our perspective, there is only 1 from the higher perspective.

To say there are 2 supercundoctors ACTING as 1 is incorrect. the correct view is that there is only 1, intruding on our 3d space at 2 points. Our universe is relativistic, things appear different according to your frame of reference. time flow, for instance.

So basically by claiming to be a "Millian" and going by the Permanent Possibility of Sensations, you're arguing against god and against quantum physics using philosophy?
Philosophy ??? Dude, quantum physics works. We're communicating right now over a computer!

Phenomenalism is like so last century. it was superseded by physicalism for a reason, namely proof. Theories such as relativity and quantum physics forced the change. No longer was it "Hey, i reckon it's like this" instead it became "i reckon it's like this, and we need to do x y x to verify or falsify the claim".

Atheist--I haven't been to explore the quantum aspect any deeper, but I have a question for you.

How do you KNOW there is ONE superconductor behind the atom curtain? They do not even actually KNOW that there are such things as atoms!! Or what they are!!--or even if the exist!! As far as you know, there could be a thousand SC's, that they claim is only one. I am sure you are aware of Kuhn and Feyerabend, and "Against Method"--so don't put too much faith in your "proven" science, because what is a fact today, such as when the majority believed the earth to be flat was a fact, can be shown to be false when new data comes forth.

BTW--JS Mill is not as "stupid" as you imply him to be, after all, what is it that the "quantum" people claim to be basing their evidence on--the "sensations" that they have from observations based on hypotheses.--NOT any actual atoms.

I did not receive a reply--for what I believe are obvious reasons--he had no answer to my question. Just as Christians cannot KNOW there is a god, quantum physicists also cannot KNOW, as they cannot "sense" any actual atoms. It's theory--and it's that simple.

The Big Bang--knocking heads with a fundamentalist

A thankfully short conversation I had with a fundamentalist Christian on the topic of creation.  It will always boggle my mind as to the level of ignorance displayed in those that do not consider any alternative beyond their own dogma.



Christian-- Speaking of creation, when will the "big bang" return to correct all the flaws he made in this world? Why would a loving big bang allow such suffering and still demand to be taught in schools at tax payers expense? 

Atheist-- I see what you are attempting to get at, but I can honestly say I do not know how the universe was created, and therefore, I do not posit any theory as to how creation began.  But I would be interested to know why your god, which you claim is an all "loving" god, would allow such suffering in the world, and allow innocent Christian children to starve in Africa?? It cannot be due to free will,  as they have no choice....they were not born in America."



Christian-- “I asked you about why the big bang would do it first. You answer my question then I will answer yours.”

Atheist--"All I know is the big bang, is a theory based on KNOWLEDGE gained from observation, and experimentation. The bible, however, is less than that, as it is nothing but stories passed down through generations, and eventually written down. It has no evidence to back any of its claims. In fact, you can go to wikipedia, you can look up over 50 different creation stories from different religions.....and their claims are ALL as valid as yours is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth

I don't claim to know, but I do put weight where the evidence lies....and the evidence does NOT lie with Yahweh. He is just one of over 10000 gods and goddess created by mankind. 

Christian--When the big bang first audably spoke to you, did you repect him and call him fa-ther?

Also since you are a prophet of the big bang when will your magic space explosian father return?”

Atheist-- “You have no idea what logic is do you?

The big bang has no father, and no creator. It is thought to be a natural phenomenon.

There is no magic space father, no Santa Claus, no Leprechauns, no Easter Bunny, and no Jesus.  There is no proof for any of them.“

Christian--“There is plenty of proof in Jesus. From the prophecies in the bible that have come true. To God speaking to your heart and you telling him to take a hike.”

Atheist--“If you had any KNOWLEDGE whatsoever beyond Sunday school, you would know that the Jews admit to embellishments when it came to writing the OT. And, much of it was written AFTER the fact. There are NO prophecies in the bible. It's interesting that the JEWS wrote that book, and they interpret it DIFFERENTLY than you do. What does that tell you? Remember.....they wrote it!! And there have been doomsday prophecies since the beginning of your religion, and NONE have come true, and they are not going to in the future!!

The real world is a nice place....too bad you are missing it.  I pity you in your ignorance.”

My conversations with Glenn Beck (By Popular Demand) on Yahoo Answers

As a regular contributor on Yahoo Answers, I have seen a plethora of responses to various questions posted on the "Religion and Spirituality" forum, some of which were amusing, some intelligent, and some just plain stupid. In any case, during my time there, I have gained a great deal of insight into the minds of believers and unbelievers alike. I have also had the opportunity to converse with many of them, including one who was known as "Glenn Beck, (By Popular Demand)."

For anyone that is not aware of who Glenn Beck is, he is a regular commentator on the Fox Network, and is famous for his , what I would call, "verbal diarrhea." Now of course, this is the internet, and anyone can pretend to be anyone they want to be, but his style of writing was so eerily similar to the diatribe he is famous for on the air....he had me convinced he was the real deal, but you can judge that for yourself. If nothing else, it certainly was entertaining for me.

It all began about a year ago, with a question that he asked on the forum in which he was tooting his own horn so to speak, and I challenged him to answer a real question on the subject, so I directed him to a question I asked regarding the "wisdom" of Yahweh. In this question, I asserted that the Christian god Yahweh is fickle, pernicious and lofty with regards to wisdom, and I used biblical passages to show how I came to this conclusion. I then asked those on the forum if in fact, this was the case. Glenn disagreed.

I have always found when speaking against Christianity, that it is most effective to use the bible against itself, which is what I did in this case. In the question, I cited passages which shows the contradictory nature of the bible in which Yahweh believes wisdom to be good, and bad, and how fickle and pernicious his nature is:

Passages which indicate Yahweh believes wisdom to be good:

"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." Prov 4:7 (NIV)
"Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, for she is moreprofitable than silver and yields better returns than gold." Proverbs 3:13-15 (NIV)

But if god didn't like "wisdom" why is it significant that "three wise men" supposedly traveled from afar to pay homage to jesus?"

Passages which indicateYahweh believes wisdom to be bad:

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief." Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Cor 1:18-19

These contradictory passages indicates just how contradictory the bible is, and more importantly, it shows just how fickle and pernicious the christian god is.

To further strengthen my case, I cited these additional passages from 1Corinthians:

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.  But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.” 1Cor 1:25-29

Now keep in mind that the definition of wisdom is :
1. “The quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgmentas to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight.
2. scholarly knowledge or learning: the wisdom of the schools.
3. wise sayings or teachings; precepts”

So, according to the bible, the christian god chose the foolish things just to shame the wise and not because those things are good, and he choose the things that are not good to nullify things that are, just so he could be number one—topdog--not because those things are good! Therefore, I conclude that the christian god is fickle and pernicious. This is so bizarre,treacherous, deceitful, and monsterous....perhaps there is no worthy adjective to describe it, but if we look again at the passages in 1Corinthians, it does imply that Yahweh's main concern is being number one, just as he does in various other places in the bible, and that the intelligence of others is a threat to him:

“But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; ...and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.”


Glenn however, disagreed with me. Below is his reply:

So I finally get to your silly question (with instructions as muddy, murkyand abstract as yours I can only wonder how well your "students"actually comprehend anything you teach them but maybe that's a good thing considering the source). Nonetheless I come here looking for a debate which is usually based on FACTS. And all you want me to debateis an opinion of yours without using bible passages. Fine, none needed.

You are a wannabe. One cannot debate an opinion and here's why. You quote certain passages to show that God is "fickle, pernicious and lofty". I can quote passages that show Him to bethe opposite of all those qualities you picked out of a thesaurus.The first rule of debating is to never make a broad sweeping generalization or claim an absolute. You should have conditioned your statement that according to some verses in the Bible, God would seem to be " fickle, pernicious and lofty". To make a generalized statement shows you do not know the "d" of debating which goes further to suggest your weak grasp over logic and reason.

Lets give you another example my student. One can say that when you are teaching religion despite being an atheist, you are being fickle,pernicious and hypocritical. But there are 2 sides to you. One is the atheist who brandishes her so called credentials here among the featherweights and high school teenagers of RS (clarification by me, "RS" is an acronym for Religion and Spirituality), and the other is when you are a professor teaching a subject she hates to make money and earn a living that clashes with her own convictions. There are at least 2 sides to everything.

Similarly, in some Bible verses,God can come off in the manner you suggest. In others He comes off differently. It all depends on which verses you are referring to and what your interpretation is. If you use certain verses of the Bible to prove that God is evil but choose to ignore the verses in the same bible that prove that God is great, you my friend are now cherrypicking.

As you call yourself a so called professor of religion, let me use a few examples from other religions. The Hindus see God as "neti neti" which means "neither this northat" and their Trinity shows God to be a Creator, Sustain-er and Destroyer all in one. It does not mean the great yogis could notmake up their mind -- it was to show the different sides of one God.The Muslims see God as pretty much unfathomable. The Buddhists believe that everything is empty of an absolute nature in their doctrine of Shunyata. So by even their standards, your argument that God IS definitely "fickle, pernicious and lofty" falls woefully short and seems awkwardly amateur. It is like saying our weather is hot without taking into account that it becomes cold as well. Any "expert" who does not understand the philosophy of 'everything having a shadow' should go back to school and ask for a refund.

In conclusion, on a strictly logical plain I have decimated your argument and I did not have to quote a bunch of verses from the bible as you requested. But I knew this would be easy. For anyone who has to copy and paste her credentials at the end of each answer is truly insecure of her position. She needs constant validation and she needs her credentials to somehow add weight to her flimsy arguments. You will be surprised to know that I am a multiple PHD and so are some of my other friends here in RS and chances are you even quote from some of us in your presentations. But we do not need to brag about our resumes as we come here for fun and to gauge the ignorance meter of the general public. You come here forvalidation like a heavy weight champ who picks on school kids because he cannot step into the ring with a real fighter.

I suggest don't quit your day job. The PHD is too "lofty" for someoneas "fickle" and "pernicious" as you. That's what I call PWNED!!!  Ask your students what it means."

And this is where I had some fun with him:

"Mr. Beck—the proverbial mouse has bitten the cheese.
You say: “You quote certain passages to show that God is "fickle, pernicious and lofty". I can quote passages that show Him to be the opposite of all those qualities you picked out of a thesaurus.”

You are obviously a very poor reader, and do not understand logic and arguments very well. My argument is based on showing the bible is against all wisdom, and in favor of wisdom, which I did do under the titles “wisdom is good” and 'wisdom is bad”, so I gave quotes from both sides to show that they were opposite and contradictory.  Now, you have agreed with me yourself, giving support to my argument, as you admit yourself that in the bible there are passages which confirm both sides; that is all wisdom is good, and all wisdom is bad. This supports my conclusion that the christian god is fickle, pernicious and lofty, and that the bible is contradictory.

THANK YOU FOR GIVING FURTHER EVIDENCE AND SUPPORT TO MY ARGUMENT AND CONCLUSION THAT THE CHRISTIAN GOD IS FICKLE, PERNICIOUS AND LOFTY, AND THAT THE BIBLE IS CONTRADICTORY.

As usual, you make lofty claims, and show your inflated ego to the world. As you concluded that you DECIMATED my argument, when in fact, you supported my argument and conclusion!!  Many people claim to be scholars, when in fact they are frauds. Titles and degrees do not prove that a person is a scholar, only what you know, and how you use it does!"

And then he got nasty. He sent me a threatening email, and then, like a thief in the night, he vanished from the Religion and Spirituality forum. It amused me to no end. This is an excerpt from the email he sent me:

"You are the biggest FRAUD, FAKE, WANNABE AND LOSER I HAVE EVER COME ACROSS IN YA. Your life is a lie and you "teach" religion when you hate it. You are the most dishonorable and disingenuous person I have ever come across on this forum and this forum is full of wannabes and wackos as you know. Your lucky I don't know who you are yet for I would out you for the charlatan that you are among the entire scholastic community. I am already sending emails to some of the top scholars on this forum so that they know what an abject excuse of a human being you are. "

As a side note, I cannot say for sure whether or not this person who called himself Glenn Beck sent any emails to the so-called "top scholars" who frequent the Yahoo forums, but shortly after this occurred, I did have a rather interesting exchange with a Christian scholar who did frequent the Yahoo Answers site for a time. Unlike Glenn's low-brow approach however, ours was pleasant, and interesting. This is one of the differences between a "wannabe" scholar, such as the person who claimed to be "Glenn Beck (By Popular Demand) and someone such as myself (I am going to say "ourselves" as my husband and I write as a team) and the Christian scholar I mentioned--who go by the arguments. To find any real truth, logic, reason, and the dialectical process must be a part of the process--as opposed to the "verbal diarrhea" I encountered in the exchange with Glenn Beck.  It would be an entirely different world if those such as Mr. Beck felt the same way.

Further note--The real Glenn Beck has NO credentials in theology, or any other discipline for that matter.  I checked. He dropped out of the one theology class he ever took.  No, that did not surprise me.

Intelligence has always been a bane to religious dogma, and the men who created the mythical Yahweh knew that, which is part of the reason why being "humble and meek" is encouraged over being "intelligentand prideful." But that is another story........

This is a link to the original question, where I was then known as "Photographer":

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AvUUodIsF2_aBktB4El...

Sin and Perfection Part 4

 

To continue with the conversation, my Christian friend asked :"But how do you atone for your sins, or pay for the mistakes you've made in life?"

Atheist--Well, I apologize, and I make amends for the mistake if necessary, as everyone should, and I make a point of not repeating the same mistake twice. My question to you would be, how do YOU atone? Apologize to your god and "repent"? How does that do anything for the "victims" of your mistakes?? It doesn't. So my system, of taking responsibility, not repeating my mistakes, and making amends for them, is far superior to just saying "sorry" to an invisible deity. As you said--secular laws--not god's laws--takes care of the "bad guys"

When you said, "The Bible says that God cannot be mocked. You can't just live anyway you like with the intent that you'll repent when you're about to die." this is a nonsensical claim, as I have no intention of "repenting". As I said earlier, I make amends for my mistakes HERE--which is what counts. How does a priest make amends for molesting children? Or a televangelist who frequents prostitutes? They call themselves "sinners" and beg forgiveness from their god.....but the children and the wives continue to suffer. In fact, the church goes out of its way to hide the "sins" of its patriarchs in order to avoid paying restitution in this life. How pathetically unjust.

Christian--You only say that (Christianity has proven itself to be a violent, misogynistic, patriarchal religion whose teachings promote killing, murder, rape, child molestation, war, etc.") because that's what you'd like to believe. FYI there's been more non-Christian (secular and other religion) atrocities committed around the world.

Atheist--No, I said that because it is TRUE, and the evidence proves it is TRUE. The "witches" the church murdered during the Inquistions were medicine women who were independent of men, and did not need them to survive. The patriarchal institution of the church could not have that....so they demonized them and took over their duties. Sadly, the men were not aware of the sterile techniques and herbal remedies the witches used, and millions died before they figured it out (Mary Daly - Gyn/Ecology)

The bible condones the "taking of virgins" as the spoils of war, and women are required to prove their virginity, which is not a requirement of men. Women were to abstain from speaking in churches. Women were sequestered for 2 weeks after giving birth to a girl, but only one for a boy. The sexism is rampant in your holy book, and has contributed to the mistreatment of women for centuries.

Many wars were carried out in the name of your god, and that cannot be denied. No war was ever committed because a leader wished to force people to become atheists. These were done with a political agenda...not a religious one, which cannot be said for the Inquisitions, etc

Christian--That's just one of the misconceptions a lot of non-Christians have about Christianity is that we are unaccountable in this life, but when we apologize to God, we're also required to apologize to the people we've wronged.


I wasn't directing my previous statement about "repentance" to you. I said God cannot be mocked because you said some Christians intentionally do a lot of bad stuff with the intention of repenting later.


There are many who make amends for the bad things they did. Those who don't are clearly wrong. Just because you know some who tried to hide what they did doesn't mean all of them try to evade responsibility. And of course, when a preacher engages in an immoral act the media usually broadcasts it to the world. Don't forget there are thousands of non-preachers and even atheists who've also engaged in such acts as you mentioned, but did not even apologize to the ones they wronged.


I've noticed you've kept comparing yourself to Christians, but you also need to remember that not every Atheist shares the same principles you do. There are lots of Atheists who've also done the very things you've accused Christians of doing.

Atheist-- And how do you, exactly, apologize to someone that is DEAD?? How do you apologize to the Native Americans, the "witches" the homosexuals, etc. that christians tortured and murdered??

The point here is...I am able to do right in the first place, whereas christians believe they cannot. Christians believe they are born sinners, and sin 24/7...sin, repent "apologize....sin, repent, apologize.....repeat when necessary. Which is exactly what christians have been doing for centuries...and it is that type of belief and attitude that PROMOTES killing, rape, child molestation, etc. christians take so much PRIDE in saying they are "sorry" to their god, and repenting for their wrongs.....instead of taking PRIDE in doing what is right in the first place and not having something that they have to apologize and "repent" for. I take "PRIDE" in doing what is right the FIRST place. Therefore I do not have to worry about saying "sorry" for something I should not have done. I have PRIDE in doing what is RIGHT.

Your god mocks himself, as Jesus said, "We know a tree by the fruits it bears"--and it applies to the entire christian faith and everything else. The "tree" known as christianity, has born MUCH bad fruit. Their atrocities committed as a result of their christian beliefs, could fill volumes.

Atheists, pagans, and western civilization is influenced by christian dogma, whether they are christian or not. The belief system is pervasive in our society. This is the reason why wives are abused, and then "forgive" their abuser and take them back......many times resulting in their murder.

I claim that christianity, and belief in christianity promotes killing, murder, rape and child molestation. I have never claimed they are the ONLY ones to commit those atrocities, but they are the majority. You have heard of the notion of probability and statistics haven't you?

Here is one example for you:

Many of the non-Abrahamic religions, not all of them, but some of them--have a holistic view of nature which promotes a more harmonious relationship between humans and nature. Whereas, christianity, with its dominion view of nature, promotes disharmony and destruction of natural resources and animal species. This is a known FACT. More of the earth has been destroyed by christians in one second on a 60 minute time clock, than any religion before them.

It's not the case that christians are the ONLY ones in history that say sorry if they make a mistake, likewise many christians NEVER say they are sorry, and they hope and pray (pun intended) that their deeds are never found out.

Furthermore, the fact christians believe they are "sinners" promotes sinning. That is my PRIMARY point that you keep bastardizing. It is a statistical claim--born bad, must BE bad....  You reap what you sow.

The next conversation deals with the Christian view of pride, another interesting topic.

Sin and Perfection Part 3

So, what exactly is perfection??  According to Christianity, it means to be "without sin", and Christians believe that Jesus is the only human to have existed "without sin"  This ongoing conversation between a Christian and an atheist proves this assumption to be wrong.....

Christian--Again, I have to stress that the problem here is that you have a different view of what perfection is. You've made mistakes in life and probably will make mistakes in the future, ergo you can't say you're perfect. Can you say a car is perfect even though it broke down last week? If it was perfect it would never break down.

We don't say people sin everyday, although sometimes we be doing things that are wrong but not be aware of it. E.g you said you were perfect yesterday and didn't commit any sin. But by rejecting God you've already committed a sin. Apart from that, there are many other things we believe, think or do that are wrong, but we don't know until someone tells us or we read about it somewhere.


And the analogy (previous post) you gave about Jesus is wrong. The Bible says that no one who truly follows God willfully sins. God knows our hearts, no one can deceive Him. And though when we repent we're forgiven, We all will be judged in heaven for every useless word, thought and action.


Furthermore, God does not overlook the justice system of the world. He allows it so that any murderer, rapist, robber.. should pay the penalty for the heinous acts they commit here on earth. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you get a free pass here.

Atheist--The lack of justice and morality in religion is why we have "secular laws" and  morality and ethics which come from society--not religious dogma.  For real justice to occur, people must be held accountable in THIS LIFE for their actions, in order to protect society, and prevent atrocities from reoccurring.

Morality comes from Normative Ethical Theories such as Utilitarianism, which means doing what is right for the overall good.--no gods required. This, along with various other theories, is how ethics and morals are formed. If we actually used the "Divine Command Theory" ie. the NET which states that "whatever god says is good is good"--then those people who kill their children because they wanted to save them from Satan would be justified, or those that invade other countries "in the name of god" would be justified, or people such as Eddie Long, who used scripture to justify his actions....would be justified!! Which is why we do NOT use the bible as a "moral guide"

So you are telling me that anyone who "rejects & blasphemes God" will be sent to hell, as well as those who are humanists and feed the hungry, and support women who are abused by their christian husbands, etc.--just because they don't believe--but a murderous rapist who repents and does believe goes to heaven. One of the biggest reasons why chistianity fails is the lack of real justice, in that anyone can repent and be saved.....no matter how heinous the crime. No accountability.....and prayer and repentance does not count. Repentance does nothing for the victims of these crimes.

..

Chrstian--I would advise you not to listen to any one who uses scripture to justify their own personal sinful act.

Atheist--The irony is so thick, I can cut it with a knife. Considering that you are a "born sinner" and you are "sinning" all the time......of course you would be using your holy book to justify your actions, and you would be justified in doing so, as you are a "born sinner" after all!

I hope you can see just how convoluted your beliefs are.....but I doubt it as you have been taught that "faith" is a virtue, and therefore, you can just ignore the truth. Faith is only a virtue, however, if it is faith in the right thing, and christianity is not. Christianity has proven itself to be a violent, misogynistic, patriarchal religion whose teachings promote killing, murder, rape, child molestation, war, etc. etc. If you do not believe me, read the papers and study some history. In fact, read "American Holocaust" by David Stannard, and you will find out how the "good christians" strung up indians in groups of 12 to represent the "apostles" Or do you remember the "ice cream socials" down south where "good christians" lynched African Americans? It's also why "good christian women" stand by their abusive husbands, and why little children are raped by pedophiliac priests.

"Forgive the patriarchs, for they are dirty, low down sinners that do not have the ability to do what is right"--what a sick, sick philosophy that is.........

To be continued.....   What is interesting about conversing with such Christians is their complete dependency on Humpty Dumpty Semantics .  They believe they have the right to make words and sentences mean whatever they want them to mean, which can make dialogue both interesting and frustrating at the same time.

Sin and Perfection part 2

To continue along with the conversation, my christian friend is still adamant in his belief that it is not possible for him to be perfect. He is still wrong......

Christian:"We're commanded to strive for perfection, even though we can never truly get to that level."

Atheist--My point exactly. In other words, you are told it is NOT possible to be perfect, but then you are told you should at least try, but you are expected to fail.  As a "born sinner," you are taught that  you can't help but do bad things....which leads to christians behaving in immoral ways--they just can't help it!! What I said is, it IS possible to be perfect, and not that I am perfect from the day I am born to the day I die. Today I was perfect, because I did not commit any "sins." ie a willful transgression.  Christians emphasize that it is NOT possible to be perfect, and that you are ALWAYS sinning.....every second of the day......and can't help yourselves from doing so. According to christians, you are always doing bad things or thinking bad thoughts, and this belief promotes BAD behavior. ie.It would be like Jesus saying," You are not supposed to commit adultery after marriage, so try not to, but I know you can't do it because you are a born sinner, so go ahead and commit adultery anyway. Just tell me about it later, and I will forgive you."--which is absurd.

Christian-- "He still requires that we be accountable for our actions."

Atheist--He does?? And what is this "accountability exactly?? Asking god for forgiveness, so you can go to paradise when you die?? How does that help the victims of child abuse, rape, and the families of those murdered by christians who "repent"?? That is NOT accountability.

As I mentioned, accountability does not come from an invisible deity. To be accountable, one must face oneself, and their victims, and pay restitution....which is only done through secular laws....not through religious dogma.

Yesterday, and I was perfect, just as I am on most days, as I do not lust after others, nor harm them in any way. I, unlike many christians, have self control and I take responsibility for my actions very seriously. I wish most christians would do the same. It would result in less child abuse, less rape, less murder, and less adultery etc......almost all of which are committed by christians in our society.

Whether I have committed a "sin" or not is not determined by what other people think independent of reality.

Christian--The reality is there are lots of things you don't know. So you shouldn't just rely on your finite mind alone to tell you what reality actually is.

Furthermore, God does not overlook the justice system of the world. He allows it so that any murderer, rapist, robber.. should pay the penalty for the heinous acts they commit here on earth. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you get a free pass here"

Atheist--Ah...but as this life has no real value to many christians, and all that does is spending paradise with their savior, all that matters to many is that they "repent". Otherwise, priests would not be molesting children, and fundamentalists would not be practicing homosexuality, etc etc...as those are considered "sins" (although I disagree with homosexuality between consenting adults being wrong) If, however, the passages in Hebrews 10 were taken seriously, the world would not be filled with such "sinners"

Christian--"Again, I have to stress that the problem here is that you have a different view of what perfection is."

Atheist--No, I am going by the CHRISTIAN definition, in that perfection is WITHOUT SIN--which means that I was perfect yesterday, the day before yesterday, and still am today.

Christian--The problem here is that we don't say people sin everyday, although sometimes we be doing things that are wrong but not be aware of it.  The Bible says that no one who truly follows God willfully sins. "

Atheist--When you are unaware that what you are doing is wrong, then it is a mistake...plain and simple. This is how we learn.  By stating that: "no one who truly follows God willfully sins. " you admit there really are NO christians, or very few of them, as almost every one who proclaims they are christian WILLFULLY sins. ie. those people I mentioned earlier who commit adultery, molest children, commit extortion, etc etc.

BTW...I do hope you are aware of Hebrews 10:26-27, which states that anyone who has accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, but continues to sin WILLFULLY will go to the pit of fire despite being a believer, as there is "no more sacrifice for sins" It's a one time deal, and it is not talking about apostates or unbelievers--it is in reference to believers.

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26-27

Christian--What about the atheists that do the very same things you mentioned above? And I hope you'd understand that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually a Christian. Unless you're born again, you're not a Christian. I'm not saying born again Christians have never done any of those things, but I just want you to bear in mind that 50% of people who say they're Christians are not really Christians. Just because they go to Church don't really mean they sincerely believe and worship God,

and unless you're born again, you're not a Christian anyway."

Atheist--Again..you made me laugh, as every other so-called christian denomination says EXACTLY the same thing! If you are not JW, you are not Christian. If you are not Catholic, you are not christian. If you are not a Baptist, you are not Christian. etc. etc..... Your claim therefore, is meaningless, as all you are doing is promoting your own version of Christian dogma without any evidence to back it up, just as everyone else does. I am sure the fundamentalist preachers who drive in limos and live in million dollar mansions would agree with you though, as people such as yourself are why they live in mansions and ride around in limos in the first place.

It's not over yet.  To be continued.....

Sin and Perfection Part 1

This is one of many email conversations I have had with Christians on the topic of sin and perfection.  I hope it provides some insight on the subject.

 

Christian--Why do human beings have the tendency to do wrong?

I mean, why is it that no matter how hard you try to be perfect you just never seem to get there. Why is it that we have the tendency to lie, hate, be angry, self-centred, rude, badmouth others...etc. Why is it that some people, even though raised in a loving family, grow up to waste their lives?


Why is it that no one teaches a human how to get angry or how to lie, yet it comes up naturally? Why is it that billions are being spent on conferences, programmes and books written on how to get people to love and respect each other, yet the world is still full of hate and most people still do live selfish lives

Atheist--Your generalization is false, as I do not have the "tendancy" to do wrong. Quite the opposite in fact. This is because I do not believe I was born bad, and can't help but be that way.....as many christians do. I believe my actions are nothing but CHOICE..and I have the capability to make the right choices. It's that simple.

Christian--Wow! Congrats on the fact that you're perfect. You've never LIED, never been angry, never been selfish, never been rude, never been prideful, never badmouthed someone....and the list goes on.

Atheist--You obviously misunderstand. The choices i have made have not always been good ones, but I take full responsibility for all of them. And yes, the majority of my choices in life have been good ones.......as I was not born "bad".......but i was born with the ability to choose right from wrong.....and NOT born with the innate attribute of "badness" This also means that I alone am responsible for my decisions, and I do not have anyone to "save" me from myself.

Christian--But you should ask yourself why you did the bad things you've done in life. I presume no one has ever encouraged you to do bad things. No one teaches us how to lie nor how to get angry nor how to badmouth others nor how to gossip nor how to offend others...etc. Yet we all are guilty of such things. On the contrary, since you were born you've always had people telling you to do good, encouraging you to never do wrong stuff.


Can you honestly say you've kept count of all the millions of choices (both major and minor choices) you've ever made in life since you were born? Even some choices we deem good are no always good; it's other people around us that can see that they're not good. There are times we've hurt and offended people and didn't even know we did so.

Atheist--Again, you are wrong. I am sure you have heard of "peer pressure" or "mob mentality"--which are two of the biggest reasons why people do things they normally would not do--people show us. Kids taking drugs because someone pressured them to. Girls having sex because some boy pressured her to. And why do others pressure people into doing things that may not be good for them, or for others? Because they believe they were born bad anyway, so they have the "right" to do bad--because as they say they are "only human after all", and jesus died to save them from themselves, so it is ok. They can still gain "salvation" as long as they repent. Peer pressure, and the belief that humans are born sinners creates sets mankind up to fail.

I can honestly say I have been conscience of my choices. I avoided drugs when they were offered freely. I avoided sex when I wasn't ready when it was offered freely, etc. I made "conscious" decisions to do what was RIGHT, and in the case of hurting someone, if I ever did, it would have been unintentional, as I have never done anything to intentionally hurt anyone--there is a big difference.

All of this comes from knowing that it IS possible to be perfect.

Christian--It seems you assume that only religious people do bad things. So all atheists are good, because they don't believe they were born bad.  And for anyone to say every bad thing they've done in life is because of peer pressure seems like someone is dodging from responsibility.


You mentioned some of the 'major decisions' you've made in life. But there are lots of minor decisions you make on a daily basis. So, you mean we can be perfect? Please tell me of one single person that has lived on this earth that was perfect. And have you attained this perfection that you speak of?

Atheist--No, not all of my choices were good ones.   But as I said, it is a matter of CHOICE, and we all have the ability to choose right, or choose wrong, but this does not mean we are innately bad, as christians claim. The fact that christians believe humans are born sinners, claim makes it MORE LIKELY that christians will do bad, as opposed to someone like me who KNOWS it is possible to be perfect. For example, I was perfect yesterday, today, and I plan to be perfect tomorrow as well...and every day after that. If I unfortunately make a mistake, I take full responsibility. But again, this does NOT mean it is not possible to be perfect again, because I am a living example that it is. I made no mistakes yesterday, nor have I done so today. Therefore, I was perfect.

You too have the ability to "choose" perfection.....or don't you believe in "free will"?? To think that you, as a human being are constantly thinking bad thoughts, and doing bad things, and cannot achieve "perfection" is insidious......and leads to the moral breakdown of society.

to be continued.....