Sin and Perfection Part 4

 

To continue with the conversation, my Christian friend asked :"But how do you atone for your sins, or pay for the mistakes you've made in life?"

Atheist--Well, I apologize, and I make amends for the mistake if necessary, as everyone should, and I make a point of not repeating the same mistake twice. My question to you would be, how do YOU atone? Apologize to your god and "repent"? How does that do anything for the "victims" of your mistakes?? It doesn't. So my system, of taking responsibility, not repeating my mistakes, and making amends for them, is far superior to just saying "sorry" to an invisible deity. As you said--secular laws--not god's laws--takes care of the "bad guys"

When you said, "The Bible says that God cannot be mocked. You can't just live anyway you like with the intent that you'll repent when you're about to die." this is a nonsensical claim, as I have no intention of "repenting". As I said earlier, I make amends for my mistakes HERE--which is what counts. How does a priest make amends for molesting children? Or a televangelist who frequents prostitutes? They call themselves "sinners" and beg forgiveness from their god.....but the children and the wives continue to suffer. In fact, the church goes out of its way to hide the "sins" of its patriarchs in order to avoid paying restitution in this life. How pathetically unjust.

Christian--You only say that (Christianity has proven itself to be a violent, misogynistic, patriarchal religion whose teachings promote killing, murder, rape, child molestation, war, etc.") because that's what you'd like to believe. FYI there's been more non-Christian (secular and other religion) atrocities committed around the world.

Atheist--No, I said that because it is TRUE, and the evidence proves it is TRUE. The "witches" the church murdered during the Inquistions were medicine women who were independent of men, and did not need them to survive. The patriarchal institution of the church could not have that....so they demonized them and took over their duties. Sadly, the men were not aware of the sterile techniques and herbal remedies the witches used, and millions died before they figured it out (Mary Daly - Gyn/Ecology)

The bible condones the "taking of virgins" as the spoils of war, and women are required to prove their virginity, which is not a requirement of men. Women were to abstain from speaking in churches. Women were sequestered for 2 weeks after giving birth to a girl, but only one for a boy. The sexism is rampant in your holy book, and has contributed to the mistreatment of women for centuries.

Many wars were carried out in the name of your god, and that cannot be denied. No war was ever committed because a leader wished to force people to become atheists. These were done with a political agenda...not a religious one, which cannot be said for the Inquisitions, etc

Christian--That's just one of the misconceptions a lot of non-Christians have about Christianity is that we are unaccountable in this life, but when we apologize to God, we're also required to apologize to the people we've wronged.


I wasn't directing my previous statement about "repentance" to you. I said God cannot be mocked because you said some Christians intentionally do a lot of bad stuff with the intention of repenting later.


There are many who make amends for the bad things they did. Those who don't are clearly wrong. Just because you know some who tried to hide what they did doesn't mean all of them try to evade responsibility. And of course, when a preacher engages in an immoral act the media usually broadcasts it to the world. Don't forget there are thousands of non-preachers and even atheists who've also engaged in such acts as you mentioned, but did not even apologize to the ones they wronged.


I've noticed you've kept comparing yourself to Christians, but you also need to remember that not every Atheist shares the same principles you do. There are lots of Atheists who've also done the very things you've accused Christians of doing.

Atheist-- And how do you, exactly, apologize to someone that is DEAD?? How do you apologize to the Native Americans, the "witches" the homosexuals, etc. that christians tortured and murdered??

The point here is...I am able to do right in the first place, whereas christians believe they cannot. Christians believe they are born sinners, and sin 24/7...sin, repent "apologize....sin, repent, apologize.....repeat when necessary. Which is exactly what christians have been doing for centuries...and it is that type of belief and attitude that PROMOTES killing, rape, child molestation, etc. christians take so much PRIDE in saying they are "sorry" to their god, and repenting for their wrongs.....instead of taking PRIDE in doing what is right in the first place and not having something that they have to apologize and "repent" for. I take "PRIDE" in doing what is right the FIRST place. Therefore I do not have to worry about saying "sorry" for something I should not have done. I have PRIDE in doing what is RIGHT.

Your god mocks himself, as Jesus said, "We know a tree by the fruits it bears"--and it applies to the entire christian faith and everything else. The "tree" known as christianity, has born MUCH bad fruit. Their atrocities committed as a result of their christian beliefs, could fill volumes.

Atheists, pagans, and western civilization is influenced by christian dogma, whether they are christian or not. The belief system is pervasive in our society. This is the reason why wives are abused, and then "forgive" their abuser and take them back......many times resulting in their murder.

I claim that christianity, and belief in christianity promotes killing, murder, rape and child molestation. I have never claimed they are the ONLY ones to commit those atrocities, but they are the majority. You have heard of the notion of probability and statistics haven't you?

Here is one example for you:

Many of the non-Abrahamic religions, not all of them, but some of them--have a holistic view of nature which promotes a more harmonious relationship between humans and nature. Whereas, christianity, with its dominion view of nature, promotes disharmony and destruction of natural resources and animal species. This is a known FACT. More of the earth has been destroyed by christians in one second on a 60 minute time clock, than any religion before them.

It's not the case that christians are the ONLY ones in history that say sorry if they make a mistake, likewise many christians NEVER say they are sorry, and they hope and pray (pun intended) that their deeds are never found out.

Furthermore, the fact christians believe they are "sinners" promotes sinning. That is my PRIMARY point that you keep bastardizing. It is a statistical claim--born bad, must BE bad....  You reap what you sow.

The next conversation deals with the Christian view of pride, another interesting topic.

Sin and Perfection Part 3

So, what exactly is perfection??  According to Christianity, it means to be "without sin", and Christians believe that Jesus is the only human to have existed "without sin"  This ongoing conversation between a Christian and an atheist proves this assumption to be wrong.....

Christian--Again, I have to stress that the problem here is that you have a different view of what perfection is. You've made mistakes in life and probably will make mistakes in the future, ergo you can't say you're perfect. Can you say a car is perfect even though it broke down last week? If it was perfect it would never break down.

We don't say people sin everyday, although sometimes we be doing things that are wrong but not be aware of it. E.g you said you were perfect yesterday and didn't commit any sin. But by rejecting God you've already committed a sin. Apart from that, there are many other things we believe, think or do that are wrong, but we don't know until someone tells us or we read about it somewhere.


And the analogy (previous post) you gave about Jesus is wrong. The Bible says that no one who truly follows God willfully sins. God knows our hearts, no one can deceive Him. And though when we repent we're forgiven, We all will be judged in heaven for every useless word, thought and action.


Furthermore, God does not overlook the justice system of the world. He allows it so that any murderer, rapist, robber.. should pay the penalty for the heinous acts they commit here on earth. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you get a free pass here.

Atheist--The lack of justice and morality in religion is why we have "secular laws" and  morality and ethics which come from society--not religious dogma.  For real justice to occur, people must be held accountable in THIS LIFE for their actions, in order to protect society, and prevent atrocities from reoccurring.

Morality comes from Normative Ethical Theories such as Utilitarianism, which means doing what is right for the overall good.--no gods required. This, along with various other theories, is how ethics and morals are formed. If we actually used the "Divine Command Theory" ie. the NET which states that "whatever god says is good is good"--then those people who kill their children because they wanted to save them from Satan would be justified, or those that invade other countries "in the name of god" would be justified, or people such as Eddie Long, who used scripture to justify his actions....would be justified!! Which is why we do NOT use the bible as a "moral guide"

So you are telling me that anyone who "rejects & blasphemes God" will be sent to hell, as well as those who are humanists and feed the hungry, and support women who are abused by their christian husbands, etc.--just because they don't believe--but a murderous rapist who repents and does believe goes to heaven. One of the biggest reasons why chistianity fails is the lack of real justice, in that anyone can repent and be saved.....no matter how heinous the crime. No accountability.....and prayer and repentance does not count. Repentance does nothing for the victims of these crimes.

..

Chrstian--I would advise you not to listen to any one who uses scripture to justify their own personal sinful act.

Atheist--The irony is so thick, I can cut it with a knife. Considering that you are a "born sinner" and you are "sinning" all the time......of course you would be using your holy book to justify your actions, and you would be justified in doing so, as you are a "born sinner" after all!

I hope you can see just how convoluted your beliefs are.....but I doubt it as you have been taught that "faith" is a virtue, and therefore, you can just ignore the truth. Faith is only a virtue, however, if it is faith in the right thing, and christianity is not. Christianity has proven itself to be a violent, misogynistic, patriarchal religion whose teachings promote killing, murder, rape, child molestation, war, etc. etc. If you do not believe me, read the papers and study some history. In fact, read "American Holocaust" by David Stannard, and you will find out how the "good christians" strung up indians in groups of 12 to represent the "apostles" Or do you remember the "ice cream socials" down south where "good christians" lynched African Americans? It's also why "good christian women" stand by their abusive husbands, and why little children are raped by pedophiliac priests.

"Forgive the patriarchs, for they are dirty, low down sinners that do not have the ability to do what is right"--what a sick, sick philosophy that is.........

To be continued.....   What is interesting about conversing with such Christians is their complete dependency on Humpty Dumpty Semantics .  They believe they have the right to make words and sentences mean whatever they want them to mean, which can make dialogue both interesting and frustrating at the same time.

Sin and Perfection part 2

To continue along with the conversation, my christian friend is still adamant in his belief that it is not possible for him to be perfect. He is still wrong......

Christian:"We're commanded to strive for perfection, even though we can never truly get to that level."

Atheist--My point exactly. In other words, you are told it is NOT possible to be perfect, but then you are told you should at least try, but you are expected to fail.  As a "born sinner," you are taught that  you can't help but do bad things....which leads to christians behaving in immoral ways--they just can't help it!! What I said is, it IS possible to be perfect, and not that I am perfect from the day I am born to the day I die. Today I was perfect, because I did not commit any "sins." ie a willful transgression.  Christians emphasize that it is NOT possible to be perfect, and that you are ALWAYS sinning.....every second of the day......and can't help yourselves from doing so. According to christians, you are always doing bad things or thinking bad thoughts, and this belief promotes BAD behavior. ie.It would be like Jesus saying," You are not supposed to commit adultery after marriage, so try not to, but I know you can't do it because you are a born sinner, so go ahead and commit adultery anyway. Just tell me about it later, and I will forgive you."--which is absurd.

Christian-- "He still requires that we be accountable for our actions."

Atheist--He does?? And what is this "accountability exactly?? Asking god for forgiveness, so you can go to paradise when you die?? How does that help the victims of child abuse, rape, and the families of those murdered by christians who "repent"?? That is NOT accountability.

As I mentioned, accountability does not come from an invisible deity. To be accountable, one must face oneself, and their victims, and pay restitution....which is only done through secular laws....not through religious dogma.

Yesterday, and I was perfect, just as I am on most days, as I do not lust after others, nor harm them in any way. I, unlike many christians, have self control and I take responsibility for my actions very seriously. I wish most christians would do the same. It would result in less child abuse, less rape, less murder, and less adultery etc......almost all of which are committed by christians in our society.

Whether I have committed a "sin" or not is not determined by what other people think independent of reality.

Christian--The reality is there are lots of things you don't know. So you shouldn't just rely on your finite mind alone to tell you what reality actually is.

Furthermore, God does not overlook the justice system of the world. He allows it so that any murderer, rapist, robber.. should pay the penalty for the heinous acts they commit here on earth. Just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you get a free pass here"

Atheist--Ah...but as this life has no real value to many christians, and all that does is spending paradise with their savior, all that matters to many is that they "repent". Otherwise, priests would not be molesting children, and fundamentalists would not be practicing homosexuality, etc etc...as those are considered "sins" (although I disagree with homosexuality between consenting adults being wrong) If, however, the passages in Hebrews 10 were taken seriously, the world would not be filled with such "sinners"

Christian--"Again, I have to stress that the problem here is that you have a different view of what perfection is."

Atheist--No, I am going by the CHRISTIAN definition, in that perfection is WITHOUT SIN--which means that I was perfect yesterday, the day before yesterday, and still am today.

Christian--The problem here is that we don't say people sin everyday, although sometimes we be doing things that are wrong but not be aware of it.  The Bible says that no one who truly follows God willfully sins. "

Atheist--When you are unaware that what you are doing is wrong, then it is a mistake...plain and simple. This is how we learn.  By stating that: "no one who truly follows God willfully sins. " you admit there really are NO christians, or very few of them, as almost every one who proclaims they are christian WILLFULLY sins. ie. those people I mentioned earlier who commit adultery, molest children, commit extortion, etc etc.

BTW...I do hope you are aware of Hebrews 10:26-27, which states that anyone who has accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, but continues to sin WILLFULLY will go to the pit of fire despite being a believer, as there is "no more sacrifice for sins" It's a one time deal, and it is not talking about apostates or unbelievers--it is in reference to believers.

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Heb 10:26-27

Christian--What about the atheists that do the very same things you mentioned above? And I hope you'd understand that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is actually a Christian. Unless you're born again, you're not a Christian. I'm not saying born again Christians have never done any of those things, but I just want you to bear in mind that 50% of people who say they're Christians are not really Christians. Just because they go to Church don't really mean they sincerely believe and worship God,

and unless you're born again, you're not a Christian anyway."

Atheist--Again..you made me laugh, as every other so-called christian denomination says EXACTLY the same thing! If you are not JW, you are not Christian. If you are not Catholic, you are not christian. If you are not a Baptist, you are not Christian. etc. etc..... Your claim therefore, is meaningless, as all you are doing is promoting your own version of Christian dogma without any evidence to back it up, just as everyone else does. I am sure the fundamentalist preachers who drive in limos and live in million dollar mansions would agree with you though, as people such as yourself are why they live in mansions and ride around in limos in the first place.

It's not over yet.  To be continued.....

Sin and Perfection Part 1

This is one of many email conversations I have had with Christians on the topic of sin and perfection.  I hope it provides some insight on the subject.

 

Christian--Why do human beings have the tendency to do wrong?

I mean, why is it that no matter how hard you try to be perfect you just never seem to get there. Why is it that we have the tendency to lie, hate, be angry, self-centred, rude, badmouth others...etc. Why is it that some people, even though raised in a loving family, grow up to waste their lives?


Why is it that no one teaches a human how to get angry or how to lie, yet it comes up naturally? Why is it that billions are being spent on conferences, programmes and books written on how to get people to love and respect each other, yet the world is still full of hate and most people still do live selfish lives

Atheist--Your generalization is false, as I do not have the "tendancy" to do wrong. Quite the opposite in fact. This is because I do not believe I was born bad, and can't help but be that way.....as many christians do. I believe my actions are nothing but CHOICE..and I have the capability to make the right choices. It's that simple.

Christian--Wow! Congrats on the fact that you're perfect. You've never LIED, never been angry, never been selfish, never been rude, never been prideful, never badmouthed someone....and the list goes on.

Atheist--You obviously misunderstand. The choices i have made have not always been good ones, but I take full responsibility for all of them. And yes, the majority of my choices in life have been good ones.......as I was not born "bad".......but i was born with the ability to choose right from wrong.....and NOT born with the innate attribute of "badness" This also means that I alone am responsible for my decisions, and I do not have anyone to "save" me from myself.

Christian--But you should ask yourself why you did the bad things you've done in life. I presume no one has ever encouraged you to do bad things. No one teaches us how to lie nor how to get angry nor how to badmouth others nor how to gossip nor how to offend others...etc. Yet we all are guilty of such things. On the contrary, since you were born you've always had people telling you to do good, encouraging you to never do wrong stuff.


Can you honestly say you've kept count of all the millions of choices (both major and minor choices) you've ever made in life since you were born? Even some choices we deem good are no always good; it's other people around us that can see that they're not good. There are times we've hurt and offended people and didn't even know we did so.

Atheist--Again, you are wrong. I am sure you have heard of "peer pressure" or "mob mentality"--which are two of the biggest reasons why people do things they normally would not do--people show us. Kids taking drugs because someone pressured them to. Girls having sex because some boy pressured her to. And why do others pressure people into doing things that may not be good for them, or for others? Because they believe they were born bad anyway, so they have the "right" to do bad--because as they say they are "only human after all", and jesus died to save them from themselves, so it is ok. They can still gain "salvation" as long as they repent. Peer pressure, and the belief that humans are born sinners creates sets mankind up to fail.

I can honestly say I have been conscience of my choices. I avoided drugs when they were offered freely. I avoided sex when I wasn't ready when it was offered freely, etc. I made "conscious" decisions to do what was RIGHT, and in the case of hurting someone, if I ever did, it would have been unintentional, as I have never done anything to intentionally hurt anyone--there is a big difference.

All of this comes from knowing that it IS possible to be perfect.

Christian--It seems you assume that only religious people do bad things. So all atheists are good, because they don't believe they were born bad.  And for anyone to say every bad thing they've done in life is because of peer pressure seems like someone is dodging from responsibility.


You mentioned some of the 'major decisions' you've made in life. But there are lots of minor decisions you make on a daily basis. So, you mean we can be perfect? Please tell me of one single person that has lived on this earth that was perfect. And have you attained this perfection that you speak of?

Atheist--No, not all of my choices were good ones.   But as I said, it is a matter of CHOICE, and we all have the ability to choose right, or choose wrong, but this does not mean we are innately bad, as christians claim. The fact that christians believe humans are born sinners, claim makes it MORE LIKELY that christians will do bad, as opposed to someone like me who KNOWS it is possible to be perfect. For example, I was perfect yesterday, today, and I plan to be perfect tomorrow as well...and every day after that. If I unfortunately make a mistake, I take full responsibility. But again, this does NOT mean it is not possible to be perfect again, because I am a living example that it is. I made no mistakes yesterday, nor have I done so today. Therefore, I was perfect.

You too have the ability to "choose" perfection.....or don't you believe in "free will"?? To think that you, as a human being are constantly thinking bad thoughts, and doing bad things, and cannot achieve "perfection" is insidious......and leads to the moral breakdown of society.

to be continued.....