This is the video I commented on, on Youtube.  Logic is as frightening to Christians as a crucifix is to Dracula...and I was banned from that channel.  Lol.  The argument however, survives.  See below.

A Response and Argument Against Dr. William Lane Craig's Argument that the Christian god is Morally Perfect and Worthy of the Attitude of Worship

Recently I was on Youtube, listening to one of Dr. Craig's Videos, which prompted me to construct this logical argument against what was said.  He said that a morally perfect god is one worthy of worship, and the ancient gods of the Greeks and other peoples were morally flawed, and therefore not worthy of worship.  

He is very wrong about the Christian god, as the Christian god Yahweh has almost identical attributes to the gods of the Greeks and Romans. 

"...for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land"  Deuteronomy 6:15

Being angry and jealous and threatening to destroy people is not virtuous.

P1 If Yahweh (the christian God) is worthy of the attitude of worship, then Yahweh would meet the conditions of the greatest conceivable being. (Craig set those conditions, and being morally perfect is one of those conditions.)

P2 If Yahweh is the greatest conceivable being, then Yahweh would have to be morally perfect.

P3 If Yahweh is morally perfect, then he would be perfectly virtuous.

P4 If Yahweh is perfectly virtuous, then he would have no vices.

P5 Yahweh has vices. (angry, jealous, vengeful, narcissistic, murderous, sadistic)

P6 Yahweh does not not have vices. (By the rule of double negation)

P7 Yahweh is not perfectly virtuous.

P8 Yahweh is not morally perfect.

P9 Yahweh is not the greatest conceivable being.

C. Yahweh is not worthy of the attitude of worship.

So Yahweh is not worthy of the attitude of worship, for the same reason, as Craig points out, that all the other little 'g' gods are not worthy of worship.

Christians such as Dr. Craig need to construct better arguments than merely asserting the Christian god is "the greatest conceivable being" as there is too much "evidence" in the bible which shows that the Christian god Yahweh is nothing short of a narcissisitic, sadistic, masochistic, angry, jealous, vengeful god.--and NOT worthy of worship. 

I got a resonse to my argument from the guy who owned the channel, and then he immediately blocked me. He said:


"P5 just begged the question, genius. Honestly, throw the Dan Barker stuff in the trash."

Here is the reply I would have posted, if he had let me, but since he didn't, my husband posted it instead:


P5 does not beg the question-It is supported by biblical passages such as the one below:

"..for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land." Deuteronomy 6:15

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”Hosea 13:16 (MURDER OF UNBORN)

After this, my husband was blocked.  These types of Christians obviously are unwilling to argue for their beliefs, but maintain them by blocking out anything that contradicts them.  It matters not, it is easy to create new accounts and keep posting, which is what I did below:

According to Craig, for any being to be worthy for the attitude of worship they must meet the criteria of the greatest conceivable being, and one of those conditions is being morally perfect.  According to the bible,Yahweh was angry and jealous, which are vices, and if vices do not count against Yahweh, then they do not count against any other being. Therefore, Zeus, or any other of the Gods would be worthy of the attitude of worship too. Yahweh must meet the same conditions, and he does not.  Therefore, Yahweh is not worthy of the attitude of worship.

You cannot waive the conditions for Yahweh that Craig set out for being worthy of the attitude of worship, ie. for being a god.  Otherwise, you are begging the question for Yahweh being a God in the first place.  Yahweh must meet the same standards that Craig set out for being worthy of the attitude of worship. So either Craig is wrong, or the bible is wrong about Yahweh being jealous and angry and therefore having vices.  Just because you prefer Yahweh does not count. 

Rejected John 3:16 Super Bowl Commercial (HD) - LookUp 316

Nature or Nurture?--how to prove Yahweh is a monster

Atheist--Why do you believe Jesus is your savior?

Christian--I have faith it's fact. My life may not be perfect, but my God is perfect. I don't fear death. I don't have to work to get to heaven, it was a free gift that i took some years ago.  Because of Jesus' free gift, if I were to die today I would be in heaven.  As John 3:16 tells us: 

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,^f that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 There isn’t much any of us can do about sin. We certainly don’t have the ability in ourselves to overcome this powerful law of human nature, therefore we turn to god. " 

Atheist--Hmmm.....I do not agree with you.  Let me show you why as I break this down for you logically:

P1. If god created us, as Christians claim, then god gave us "human nature."

P2. If god gave us human nature, then god is to blame for the problem of evil.

C. Therefore, god is to blame for the evil in the world.

So, in reality if you are a believer, you should be blaming god, not worshiping him.

Christian--If you are going to make an argument against Christianity, at least read Genesis 1-2 first. That'll answer why man is inherently evil. The serpent tempted Adam and Eve. God created them perfect. they chose to sin. because of their sin man is now inherently evil. but there is the hope of John 3:16, as  Jesus came to save us from our sins, and all we have to do is accept this free gift of salvation and we have the hope of knowing for certain..

Atheist--As I am a professor of philosophy and religion, I have read the bible more times than almost any christian I know. What you are saying is Jesus died to save you from your "human nature" that he (in the form of Yahweh) gave to you himself. lolol--I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.

Interestingly enough, I was a Christian for most of my life until I went to university and studied all of the religions. I even asked once Bishop why he did not tell his flock the whole truth, (As in all of the explanations learned clergy know, and I know as well. I was asked to become a member of that club too, but I refused as I could not ethically do so as an atheist, although many do.)--he told me "The poor peasants don't need to know too much."--He was wrong. 

I  base my conclusion not on just study, but on logic, reason, the hypothetical-deductive method, and the dialectical process. Faith is only a virtue if it is faith in the right thing. For instance, the Germans had faith in Hitler, and the Jews had faith in Yahweh--neither one worked out well for them.
As Montgomery Gentry said "GTO's don't run on faith."

Christian-What you said about God being the reason for our human nature and therefore our sin is completely false. Got did not create sin, he created the OPTION to sin. He gave us free will so that we may CHOOSE to love Him. You see, being loved by someone who is forced to love you is not real love. Someone choosing to love you above all things is true love. This is the purpose of free will. God didn't cause our sin. We did. Which is why He sent His only beloved son to save us from sin.

Atheist--Christians say god created them. Therefore, he also created their "human nature" which they also tell me allows them to sin--unless of course Satan created that for you. Remember what it says in Proverbs 16:33, "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." EVERY means ALL--you decide nothing. Paul also said "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32--so god sets you up to fail--he BINDS you to disobey!!

And why would an all loving god even give you the "option" to sin? Why didn't he create earth like he did heaven, with free will and NO evil?? If he was all powerful, he could have easily have done so. But no, according to Christians, he gives you the OPTION to sin!--how sinister of him!!  We could have instead been given the OPTION of only choosing from a variety of GOOD decisions, like heaven, but the sadistic god thought otherwise.

Christian--If we had no choice but to love God, would we REALLY love God? If God was the only option, we would only love him because there is nothing else to love. God wants us to choose to love him instead of worldly things. 

Atheist--According to the bible, god IS the one that determines whether or not you believe, or love him, as he determines EVERYTHING. And as the passage says, he BINDS you to disobey. You have no choice in the matter. The passages that suggest that you have free will are contradictory to the ones I mentioned that show that you do not--which illustrates the inconsistency of the text, and how poorly the bible was written.

Also, see Romans 9:19-23 which explain how god, as the "potter" determines what shape and form the clay (you) will take. This is one of the passages which instigated the Reformation, and Calvinism.

Christian--We waste our time arguing about the way scripture is written, focus on what the scripture says. God loves this World. Period. HE SENT HIS ONLY SON. WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON WILL NOT DIE BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Focus on the glory of our Lord than your own opinion. 

Atheist-- I focus on the SCRIPTURE because that is what you base your beliefs on, and you also claim it is inerrant--and it is NOT. It is NOT my opinion, it is what is written in your holy book that I focus on. So your god, who created you with "human nature" has to start over because he screwed up the first time, and sends a flood, knowing before hand it wouldn't work so he would send his son to die too--when the all powerful god did not have to have anyone die at all to give us salvation.

Christian--Your problem is you have no understanding of My God. He doesn't operate the way YOU want him to operate. Focus on this: "I AM WHO I AM"

It is not I AM WHO YOU WANT ME TO BE. He will do things His own way. Even I don't understand somethings and I will admit to that. But you know what? HE taught me to lean not on my own understanding. So when I try to focus on God through my human body I wont get anywhere. It takes His own Spirit for you to understand Him.

 You don't even realize the grace He is showing you right now. The Gospel has been proclaimed you have the chance to repent and turn to God. But since you choose to follow your your own mind, God will give you off to your own mind. Many people rejected Jesus when He was here on Earth. Did that stop him? No, He continued to do what the Father sent Him to do.

Atheist--So your god, who supposedly gave you this "human nature", and BINDS you to disobedience, is kind enough to allow you to worship him and ask him for forgiveness from that which he is responsible for!!--that is, your disobedience which he has BOUND you to!--that truly is bizarre.

Not only that, you are saying that I cannot understand your god through the scriptures that he inspired!! If we cannot understand him, and he is beyond time and space and our reason--then what makes you think you have any idea what, if anything he thinks and wants from you? He could want you to be a murderer for all you know, as you cannot understand god......nobody can.

Christian--And by saying that you prove God to be right. He has given you over to what you want. You say you know more than God? ok. You say logic is better? ok. You say finding answers is greater? ok. All I am telling you is that The Lord's name will be glorified. If you choose to believe, so let it be, If you choose not to believe...well........

Atheist-- No--I prove that your god is impotent--as he vowed to destroy the wisdom of the wise (1 Cor 1:19)--which the church tried its hardest to do, but we are still here. Christians destroyed the library of Alexandria and banned free thought for hundreds of years, until the enlightenment. Million of the "wise" were killed by Christians....but yet we remain. Your god has proven himself to be impotent--in more ways than one.

One more thing you should realize is that you do not even get to choose whether or not you believe or do not believe in god. He did that for you. In Ephesians 2:8-9 God gives you grace--but it is NOT OF YOURSELVES--it is a gift. This means you don't even decide if you believe or not, which also means he decides who is damned--which again, makes him a monster of epic proportions.

Christian--I'm sorry sir but do you not have anything better to do than to insult and put down the ideals and values of those who have a different view than you?

Atheist--Nothing that I have said is insulting. I am using scripture to show how absurd Christian beliefs are. That is all. Absurdity does not deserve to be worshiped and glorified.

Why the organization "Fixed Point" is not very convincing..

 I'm diverting a bit with this post, but I want to comment on a commercial I saw this weekend during the Superbowl.

The Christian organization called "Fixed Point" is a fundamentalist Christian organization which spreads the word so to speak via the internet, publicized debates, and now commercials during Superbowl. They have organized debates with such notable atheists as Christopher Hitchens, and just recently, broadcast a commercial during Sunday's Superbowl based on the passages from John 3:16, at  the end of which, they suggest you to "look up" lookupjohn316.com--which I did. This is what they say on their website:

"Well, it’s clear there really isn’t much any of us can do....we certainly don’t have the ability in ourselves to overcome this powerful law of human nature. "

Which got me to thinking, so I constructed a logical argument based on the claims they made on their website:

P1. If god created us, as Christians claim, then god gave us "human nature."
P2. If god gave us human nature, then god is to blame for the problem of evil.
C. Therefore, god is to blame for the evil in the world.
 

Almost all such claims made by Christians are done to make the gullible more susceptible to their dogma, but with a little logic and some reflective thought, they are all easily refuted.  In this example, we see by their own admission the christian god, if he existed, is to blame for the problem of evil. He is to blame for humans disobedient due to their "human nature" that he himself created. After setting the scenario up, he then chooses who he gives grace to because he also determines who believes and who does not believe, as he determines EVERYTHING, according to the bible, and most Christians.

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." (Proverbs 16:33)

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32.

If the bible and the christian conception of Yahweh is correct, then he is to blame for the problems who he then sets his son to be the sacrificial lamb for.....which makes him a sadistic monster of epic proportions. Torturing his own son for something he did in the first place is not beautiful--it is monstrous. It would be terrible for a human father to do, but for an all knowing all powerful "father" to set that up---it is absolutely ridiculous!!

"Dr." Eric von Anderseck--the self professed "chief" apostle is a fake, phony, and a fraud.

Recently on Yahoo Answers, one of my questions in the R&S section was answered by someone claiming to be "Dr." Eric von Anderseck.  Now, anyone can claim anything on the internet, so I decided to do some research on the man and found out that yes, his name is Eric von Anderseck, but NO he is NOT A REAL SCHOLAR, as he gave himself that designation through his "self accredited" school that he promotes through the internet.  I visited his website, where he promotes his own brand of theology, and claims to be the "Chief Apostle." I also read his ummm..."dissertation" and wondered why an accredited school was not listed on his paper.  I found out why after reading his bio on the site, as he is "self accredited,"  which allows him to promote his own brand of theology through his website, and his "self-published" books. 

Yesterday I could access his "about" page on the site, but today for some reason, it's not there.  Hmmm.....perhaps he is trying to "reinvent" himself again?
Here is the site:http://www.second8thweek.com/index.php

At least he admits he is NOT recognized by the US Department of Education.  That is about the only "honest" information you can find on his site, which you can find  in his "catalog." 

My research also resulted in a one-sided email exchange with "Dr." von Anderseck, where I asked him where I asked him where he got his credentials, and challenged him to answer another question I asked based on his answer to my previous question.  Not only did I not receive a reply, he also failed to answer the question.  Have they no shame???  

Evangelists, and clergy in general keep showing us how corrupt, and immoral they truly are, from scandals involving prostitutes and homosexuality, to con men taking money from the gullible in order to finance their mansions and private jets.  When will people see just how corrupt religious institutions are??

How mistranslations somehow become the "word of god" ie the "Textus Receptus"

This was a highly entertaining  email conversation I had with a street evangelist, based on a question I asked on Yahoo Answers concerning the paraphrasing of Mark 1:2-3.   He goes on to claim the Textus Receptus is a reliable source. I had to laugh.....  Here is the question, and the exchange that followed.  Enjoy.

 

Why do academic Christians who KNOW that Mark 1:2-3 is a "paraphrase" from three different passages in the OT, namely Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1 and Exodus 23:20, explain that it is NOT a quote from Isaiah prophesying the return of Jesus, but a misquote? Why don't learned christians explain that it is only a paraphrase taken from various prophets making reference to various other subject matter, and not to Jesus?

This leads to distortion and misrepresentation. In this case, paraphrase is just another explanation and excuse for a misquote, and to misrepresent the truth.

Exodus 23:20:-- "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared"

Malachi 3:1-- "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty" (NIV).

Isaiah 40:3--A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God (NIV).

Results in:

"It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way a voice of one calling in the desert, Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’ Mark 1:2-3

Christian--The first problem you are having is that you are using a version of the Bible that is unreliable in it's translation. The second problem you are having is that you are trying to act like you know something that you do not.

Mark 1:2-3 does quote from Isaiah and Malachi, and the quotes are accurate. There is no "lie" or "misleading" involved.

Atheist--Your explanation may have worked for you in the past, when you are dealing with people that do not KNOW the material, but your feeble attempt at Humpty Dumpty semantics will not work on someone like myself who has studied at university/seminary, and TEACHES it at university level for a living.

If you know it, why not explain it to the people, and let them make a RATIONAL decision based on the FACTS, as opposed to being a dishonest so-called scholar. You should be ashamed.......

Christian--Wow, you seem to think pretty highly of yourself, and, without knowing anything about me, assume I do not know what I'm talking about. If you knew the Textus Receptus, you would know that "prophet" is there. Here is the actual writing in the Textus Receptus...

ως γεγραπται εν τοις προφηταις ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ος κατασκευασει την οδον σου εμπροσθεν σου

" προφηταις " is the Greek word, " prof-ay'-tace " which means "foreteller" or "Prophet".

As you can see, it is in the original.

The KJV reads, (Mark 1:2) "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

As you can see, the word "Isaiah" is not even there...in the original Greek, or the English translation.

So, as I said before, You are using a perverted copy, or simply do not know what you are talking about.

Atheist--Lolol--yes, I think very highly of myself. I am one that your god said he would "destroy"--as in "destroy the wisdom of the wise."

Let me demonstrate. Unlike you, I research everything, and do not take anything on "faith". You mentioned the "Textus Receptus" as being, I quote, "As you can see, it is in the original."--lolol--thanks for that, I haven't laughed so hard in a while.

The Textus Receptus is a "translation" by Erasmus of another "translation of the Vulgate......NOT an original. This is the difference between a scholar---me---and an ignorant wanna be scholar--you.

The original Greek--and scholars such as myself have checked the ORIGINAL Greek, just as we check the ORIGINAL Hebrew--says ISAIAH.

I suggest you go to school, but if already have, you need to go back. I suspect, based on your "skills" that you are a member of a christian cult that has no valid academic foundation. Basically, you are just given a "pastoral document" and Sunday school "in house" education--that is totally biased towards your own particular dogma--as opposed to a TRUE academic study. For instance, such as the education that catholic priests, or Methodists or Lutherans are given.

As a further note, if you rely on the Textus Receptus, then I believe you are a true sheeple, and will follow anything you are told blindly.....................

Christian--Well, thanks for your imput. The Scriptures say that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Since you have rejected the very God that created you, it is understandable that you have no wisdom...at least in regards to spiritual matters.

This being said, there is not much use speaking with you regarding such matters.

And just for the record, God destroying the wisdom of the wise is a future event when He returns again. So, glory in you worldly wisdom while you can. It won't last much longer.

Atheist--You have no answer.....you should be honest and courageous enough to admit that to yourself.

Christian--I have been a street Evangelist for twenty-two years now. During that twenty-two years I have studied Greek and Hebrew and have done extensive study into manuscript evidence. Over the years I have learned a lot. As a result, I will share two things with you.

(1) I am convinced beyond any doubt that the KJV is the inspired Word of God for the English Speaking people, and the manuscripts used to translate it into English are inspired of God.

(2) There is no sense wasting my time with someone like you. You think you have it all figured out, and without the Holy Spirit to teach and guide you, I would be waisting my time.

Have a good day, basking in your humanistic wisdom.

Atheist--You say "KJV is the inspired Word of God for the English Speaking people,"--but the evidence states otherwise....unless of course the christian god is stupid.

Your "perfect" god would not have "rushed" Erasmus into creating a book that was full of errors and mistranslations of the actual meanings of what it was translated from...........that is not something a "perfect" god would do. A perfect god would not "inspire" Erasmus to "polish" the language ie "change" it, because as he said, ""It is only fair that Paul should address the Romans in somewhat better Latin."--no, a "perfect" god would not inspire someone to change the text......but that is what happened.

Christian--I'm not avoiding anything. I just don't waist my time with people who are only out to argue. You are so stuck on yourself, and have rejected the only source of spiritual truth (God), and as such, it would be a waist (his spelling, not mine) of my time to try and teach you anything.

Have you ever heard the saying, "it is better to keep you mouth closed and let people think you are a fool, then to open it and prove them right"?

In your case, it's to late.

I will not be responding, nor reading any further emails from you. It is obvious that you only want to show how "smart" you are, and to argue. There is nothing I can say that will help you, and there is nothing you have to say that I haven't heard, studied, and dismissed at some point in the past. So I bid you a good day,

Atheist--No need to reply when you do not have one......I understand completely. Good day to you as well.

(This is more fun and entertaining when I do it with a theologian in front of my students.......but this email exchange was entertaining as well.)