Wednesday, February 9, 2011

Nature or Nurture?--how to prove Yahweh is a monster

Atheist--Why do you believe Jesus is your savior?

Christian--I have faith it's fact. My life may not be perfect, but my God is perfect. I don't fear death. I don't have to work to get to heaven, it was a free gift that i took some years ago.  Because of Jesus' free gift, if I were to die today I would be in heaven.  As John 3:16 tells us: 
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,f that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
 There isn’t much any of us can do about sin. We certainly don’t have the ability in ourselves to overcome this powerful law of human nature, therefore we turn to god. " 

Atheist--Hmmm.....I do not agree with you.  Let me show you why as I break this down for you logically:

P1. If god created us, as Christians claim, then god gave us "human nature."
P2. If god gave us human nature, then god is to blame for the problem of evil.
C. Therefore, god is to blame for the evil in the world.
So, in reality if you are a believer, you should be blaming god, not worshiping him.

Christian--If you are going to make an argument against Christianity, at least read Genesis 1-2 first. That'll answer why man is inherently evil. The serpent tempted Adam and Eve. God created them perfect. they chose to sin. because of their sin man is now inherently evil. but there is the hope of John 3:16, as  Jesus came to save us from our sins, and all we have to do is accept this free gift of salvation and we have the hope of knowing for certain..

Atheist--As I am a professor of philosophy and religion, I have read the bible more times than almost any christian I know. What you are saying is Jesus died to save you from your "human nature" that he (in the form of Yahweh) gave to you himself. lolol--I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.
Interestingly enough, I was a Christian for most of my life until I went to university and studied all of the religions. I even asked once Bishop why he did not tell his flock the whole truth, (As in all of the explanations learned clergy know, and I know as well. I was asked to become a member of that club too, but I refused as I could not ethically do so as an atheist, although many do.)--he told me "The poor peasants don't need to know too much."--He was wrong. 
I  base my conclusion not on just study, but on logic, reason, the hypothetical-deductive method, and the dialectical process. Faith is only a virtue if it is faith in the right thing. For instance, the Germans had faith in Hitler, and the Jews had faith in Yahweh--neither one worked out well for them.
As Montgomery Gentry said "GTO's don't run on faith."

Christian-What you said about God being the reason for our human nature and therefore our sin is completely false. Got did not create sin, he created the OPTION to sin. He gave us free will so that we may CHOOSE to love Him. You see, being loved by someone who is forced to love you is not real love. Someone choosing to love you above all things is true love. This is the purpose of free will. God didn't cause our sin. We did. Which is why He sent His only beloved son to save us from sin.

Atheist--Christians say god created them. Therefore, he also created their "human nature" which they also tell me allows them to sin--unless of course Satan created that for you. Remember what it says in Proverbs 16:33, "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord." EVERY means ALL--you decide nothing. Paul also said "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32--so god sets you up to fail--he BINDS you to disobey!!
And why would an all loving god even give you the "option" to sin? Why didn't he create earth like he did heaven, with free will and NO evil?? If he was all powerful, he could have easily have done so. But no, according to Christians, he gives you the OPTION to sin!--how sinister of him!!  We could have instead been given the OPTION of only choosing from a variety of GOOD decisions, like heaven, but the sadistic god thought otherwise.

Christian--If we had no choice but to love God, would we REALLY love God? If God was the only option, we would only love him because there is nothing else to love. God wants us to choose to love him instead of worldly things. 

Atheist--According to the bible, god IS the one that determines whether or not you believe, or love him, as he determines EVERYTHING. And as the passage says, he BINDS you to disobey. You have no choice in the matter. The passages that suggest that you have free will are contradictory to the ones I mentioned that show that you do not--which illustrates the inconsistency of the text, and how poorly the bible was written.
Also, see Romans 9:19-23 which explain how god, as the "potter" determines what shape and form the clay (you) will take. This is one of the passages which instigated the Reformation, and Calvinism.

Christian--We waste our time arguing about the way scripture is written, focus on what the scripture says. God loves this World. Period. HE SENT HIS ONLY SON. WHOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON WILL NOT DIE BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Focus on the glory of our Lord than your own opinion. 

Atheist-- I focus on the SCRIPTURE because that is what you base your beliefs on, and you also claim it is inerrant--and it is NOT. It is NOT my opinion, it is what is written in your holy book that I focus on. So your god, who created you with "human nature" has to start over because he screwed up the first time, and sends a flood, knowing before hand it wouldn't work so he would send his son to die too--when the all powerful god did not have to have anyone die at all to give us salvation.

Christian--Your problem is you have no understanding of My God. He doesn't operate the way YOU want him to operate. Focus on this: "I AM WHO I AM"

It is not I AM WHO YOU WANT ME TO BE. He will do things His own way. Even I don't understand somethings and I will admit to that. But you know what? HE taught me to lean not on my own understanding. So when I try to focus on God through my human body I wont get anywhere. It takes His own Spirit for you to understand Him.
 You don't even realize the grace He is showing you right now. The Gospel has been proclaimed you have the chance to repent and turn to God. But since you choose to follow your your own mind, God will give you off to your own mind. Many people rejected Jesus when He was here on Earth. Did that stop him? No, He continued to do what the Father sent Him to do.

Atheist--So your god, who supposedly gave you this "human nature", and BINDS you to disobedience, is kind enough to allow you to worship him and ask him for forgiveness from that which he is responsible for!!--that is, your disobedience which he has BOUND you to!--that truly is bizarre.
Not only that, you are saying that I cannot understand your god through the scriptures that he inspired!! If we cannot understand him, and he is beyond time and space and our reason--then what makes you think you have any idea what, if anything he thinks and wants from you? He could want you to be a murderer for all you know, as you cannot understand god......nobody can.

Christian--And by saying that you prove God to be right. He has given you over to what you want. You say you know more than God? ok. You say logic is better? ok. You say finding answers is greater? ok. All I am telling you is that The Lord's name will be glorified. If you choose to believe, so let it be, If you choose not to believe...well........

Atheist-- No--I prove that your god is impotent--as he vowed to destroy the wisdom of the wise (1 Cor 1:19)--which the church tried its hardest to do, but we are still here. Christians destroyed the library of Alexandria and banned free thought for hundreds of years, until the enlightenment. Million of the "wise" were killed by Christians....but yet we remain. Your god has proven himself to be impotent--in more ways than one.
One more thing you should realize is that you do not even get to choose whether or not you believe or do not believe in god. He did that for you. In Ephesians 2:8-9 God gives you grace--but it is NOT OF YOURSELVES--it is a gift. This means you don't even decide if you believe or not, which also means he decides who is damned--which again, makes him a monster of epic proportions.

Christian--I'm sorry sir but do you not have anything better to do than to insult and put down the ideals and values of those who have a different view than you?

Atheist--Nothing that I have said is insulting. I am using scripture to show how absurd Christian beliefs are. That is all. Absurdity does not deserve to be worshiped and glorified.


  1. Is this supposed to be a real conversation? Or are you playing both parts?

  2. It was a very real conversation via email. So no, I was not playing both parts.